We had a great time at the inaugural 'live event' - thanks to those of you who were able to come and make it such a good time!
Here's a brief summary of where we got to - let's keep the debate going - and more importantly, let's do something about it!
Kingdom
Jesus kept talking about the Kingdom - that it was close, that it was coming, that it was good news. We decided that a kingdom was where the rule of a king was in place and that the Kingdom of God was good news because that meant the best King, the King with our interests at heart, would be ruling individually and collectively. It would mean justice, equality, an end to oppression, the reversal of all that the fall brought. We felt this was much bigger than the 'good news' we often hear - more than simple forgiveness, absence of guilt, cleansing from sin - wonderful though these are.
We recognised too that this kingdom was not yet in place - the rule of the king is not complete in any individual and therefore not in us collectively. Hence the prayer 'your will be done on earth as it is in heaven'. Jesus taught that the infiltration of the kingdom would start small and slowly, that change might appear imperceptible, but that it was unstoppable evne when all the power of the enemy was ranged against it.
We saw a picture of this new kingdom through King David visiting villages (riding on a donkey), people preparing for his arrival, and his presence with them transofrming their lives.
Church
If the kingdom is the rule of the king, what does the king command? That we should love and be loved by God, love ourselves and love each other with this same love. Church is simply any group of people with a common purpose- kingdom church would therefore be any group of people with the love of God as their common purpose. In short, church would then be the means by which we are encouraged to be kingdom individually and which models kingdom publicly. 'By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another'
This might sound simple, but has profound implications. Gathering together on a sunday might then be church - but it might simply be gathering together on a sunday. Having a BBQ with friends where you encourage and support one another in the love of God would be church. If there were people at the BBQ who didn't yet know God's love, all the better.
This definition of church pointed much more to genuine community than to institution, organisation or event. But this is counter-cultural (for us in the west). The reality is that material stuff makes us independent, we have everything we need, we lose the need for others, we impoverish relationship. In our culture we ring ahead to see if we can visit - it's often planned weeks in advance. But our need for each other, for community doesn't work like that. I might need to share something, want to point something out now, not in a weeks time... Yet spontenaity requires us to relax! To be more relaxed that people might see us at less than our best, might see our homes when they are messy, might encounter us as we are finsihing a row....
So how might this church work? Shared meals, shared possessions, shared, or at least open, homes even. What if we spent less time tidying, less time working, less time in the 'production' of church? We'd have fewer things, but would have more time for relationship.
Of course, size may limit this, you can't have very close relationships with lots of people, Jesus had 12 disciples, 3 close friends, one best mate.... Yet he also had a wide circle of friends - 500 by the time of his ascension and an even bigger group who would have said they knew him. Does this provide us with a model?
The reality is that if our group with common purpose becomes too big we end up closing off doors to newcomers and become a clique. We become stale, or institutional going to ever bigger buildings allowing more of the group to be consumers of 'church' rather than participants in family.
In such institutional church the focus can become on keeping the machine of the organisation going, with more and more volunteers needed to service the engine. It can lead to burn out of individuals, and to becoming less outward focussed for the whole because all the energy is going into the machine.
Summary
Whilst we all said that we enjoyed the big celebration event, that we needed somewhere to 'fill up' each week we wondered whether there is another way: living as light and encouragement to each other in the weekso that 'church' is a constant experience. We realised that this would be costly - no more pulling up the drawbridge, much less focus on what we have, much more openess about who we are, who we relate to and what we own. Church is no longer something that happens to us or which we assist in running. It is about us getting serious about obeying the King when he tells us to love God, love ourselves and love each other. It means we do what he inspired the writer of Hebrews to say 'Don't neglect meeting with one another...' - but not interpreting this as once on a sunday if there is no better offer, but as a constant invitation to be family.
I think this is so interesting, if we live "kingdom church" in our lives, as a constant, fluid reality, meeting up with friends, christian or not, but as "church as a constant, love-filled, spiritual and practical experience", is the big Church service on a Sunday necessary, or rather is it something we feel we should go to everyweek? I feel a failure on the many sundays we don't make it, often to see friends and family or boys' sports fixtures, but I have a heartfelt desire to BE the church and abide in God all week. I sometimes go to a communion service on a thursday morning which I love, but still I feel bad if I haven't made it on Sunday!!Hmm, you got me thinking again, thankyou.
ReplyDeleteI knew this was the way that the debate would go, obviously understanding the truth in it, but I believe that meeting on a Sunday is maybe one of a prctical nature where it may be difficult practically to define an alternative time (due to other commitments; primarily 'work' where all like-minded Christians might meet to be taught, encourage each other etc etc. Although we want to be 'spiritual' about our interpretation of this issue, I beieve that we have to be practical too. We live in a 'real' world where although people, like the person who made the previous comment (and that includes me) feel 'Church' must come first and if it doesn't 'guilt' creeps in, we live in a world that has 'defined' how, where and when we spend our time. I often feel that little thought is given to those who work. Many things increasingly take place during the day and even the 'early morning prayer times' who 'surely everyone should be able to get to before work' are impossible for me because I have left for work before they begin. I've perhaps gone a little off the subject, but i think, before we think about dispensing with traditional routines, maybe they have a place practically. Otherwise I agree with everything stated.
ReplyDeleteI apologise for the awful typing errors in the previous comment.
ReplyDeleteI hear the above comments, but it sure is hard as a mum, telling your son he can't be in a football team, or rugby squad, which are real passions and God-given skills because he HAS to "go to church". Maybe not hard hard when people are losing their lives for the gospel but very painful to an 11 yr old. Problem is, as said, we are troublingly dictated to by society and its timetables and what is practical varies for all of us. I guess, Sunday morning is the best time for the largest percentage of people.
ReplyDeleteSorry, couple more things on reflection. I think of 'Church' as the past,present, future 'Body of Christ', all those who love and follow Him, where is presence is manifest to the world. In this sense church is when particular groups of Christians meet but it is huger and more glorious aswell. So if I meet with fellow Christians from any group/denomination it is church, when I give financially to any in need or whichever mission/Christian group, I am giving to the Church. Is it, therefore important to weekly meet with the same group - does God care as long as we are learning, worshipping, encouraging etc?. Or is this commitment phobia?! If I am profoundly committed to individual Christians/missions etc (and the Church in its whole entire sense), do I need to be feeling horribly guilty if I do not go to the Sunday service of one particular church each week??
ReplyDeleteFinally, I wish I had been able to make the live event, sounds like such an interesting discussion. Was interested to note that folk felt the need to weekly 'fill-up' at a Sunday service. I need, often drastically, to be fed spiritually, but could be with friends, CD, teaching book/dvd, prayer of my family etc, genuinely do not need a big weekly meeting with the same group for this although do miss worship with lots of others if I've been away a while.In the past live meetings were the only way to impart teaching etc, not the case now in this age of multimedia and easy transport.
BTW, these are my stumbling musings and questions not my stone-set opinions!
A few thoughts generated by these comments:
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous -- I personally like the word "rhythm" (except I never know how to spell it) a bit more than "routine" and I believe that rhythms are important. So a rhythm of meeting together is vital. Sunday works for you, but less well for others (who have to work, for example). If we have true community that IS church (and not a guilt-driven sense that we should go TO church), and a true community that considers the needs of all (including those at work by 7 am and those who have to on Sundays) then we can and must find lots of ways and times to meet together that are far more practical. Some will pray early. Some will pray in the early evening, etc. We'll meet in groups large and small, formal and informal. That's the genius of genuine community. We talked for a while about church as the family of God and most seemed to agree that this concept helps us think more flexibly about what church can (and ought) to be. We didn't say Sunday morning meetings were bad. We did say that surely God's Kingdom is bigger, better and far more 24/7 than we sometimes allow it to be. In a true community (family), you wouldn't feel like you're not considered, as you clearly do sometimes. I am sorry for that. Obviously, most people in our church community do work, as you do. If there are no opportunities for you to join with others and pray, then the community is not, in fact, practically serving you. If I knew who you were, I'd call you up for a chat!
Belinda -- I'd suggest that commitment to one community is essential for the sustained "learning, worshiping, encouraging, etc." that you desire. Whether the key determination of your commitment is measured by your attendance at Sunday services is another question. But we each learn more, I am certain, from the rough and tumble of living and working with people in an intimate way. There are needs for spiritual protection and, yes, sometimes for rebuke and correction. The individualist in me doesn't like that -- evidence of my lack of genuine community-mindedness. But I need it. Two Muslims turned up at our church building last Sunday (respectfully and gently trying to convert me). One thing that I realised is that they have duty/guilt to "go to the mosque" but don't have a spiritual community. They go to any mosque, anywhere, anytime but they don't have a sense of a spiritual community like we do. They also don't understand a Triune God or one who is relational with His people -- so maybe it is no surprise their beliefs don't generate community. I felt sorry for them. They don't know what they're missing.
Again, if we think of church as family, we may think differently. Who thinks it is wrong for a loving parent to correct a child -- it trains and protects. Who doesn't admire those close and fiercely loyal, affirming a protective families we all know and a few of us are fortunate enough to be part of? Likewise, as God's family, we ought to be encouraging, spurring on and, yes, sometimes correcting one another -- this only will work well in a place where there is commitment to community and relationship because I can trust the one who rebukes me if I know he/she is motivated by love for me. That means commitment to time together, even when it isn't convenient -- because my commitment to community isn't about me (or else I'm just a consumer) it is about everyone's benefit. Such communities demonstrate the now and future Kingdom. Church is a taster of the coming fullness of the Kingdom. I think that's a fair representation of some of the ideas in our discussion the other night.
I am absolutely with you on the need for love, accountability and community, I guess I've just been pondering on how for different people, in different circumstances, the practical outworking of how we regularly meet can take slightly different forms, perhaps. I quite like the fact that there is diversity in the way that different members of the Church find expression of their faith in different forms. I have know deeply holy individuals who meet with God in High Catholic Mass and pentecostal homegroups. Quiet, meditative thinkers and those that love huge meetings like New Wine etc. Its easy to get prescriptive, but I guess the evidence is in the fruit of each life and the life of Jesus in that group of believers.
ReplyDeleteI like the bit about not being a consumer. I get that it's not always going to feel convenient or comfortable. I believe we should be in close and committed relationship with other Christians for the reasons you suggest. I feel challenged. So much food for thought and prayer, thank you very much for taking the time.
Is it just me, or is there a sense in which this debate about church and what it is really all about is one that is emerging more and more at the moment? It seems to be something more and more people are currently thinking about and challenged by. I think it is an incredibly relevant debate and something we all have to think through. I think the world is changing fast - and I think that does include "church" as we know it.
ReplyDeleteI also think authenticity in the way we live out our relationship with HIM and the way individuals or families live the way of LOVE will look different for different people, depending on their past experiences, the time they have available for meeting up, whether they work shifts or not, their personality, and all sorts of other variables. I don't think we can or should put a "formula" to how living out the kingdom values of LOVE should look like ... otherwise we just come up with another set of rules or another institution! But of course we need to look out for one another, encouraging one another in the way of LOVE, living loved and living out of that love, and helping one another in this area. As someone put it to me recently: Ask yourself "who does HE want you to be hanging out with at the moment?"
To me this is a huge challenge, perhaps an invitation to be more and more open on a daily basis to the Holy Spirit in my life. I want to learn to hear HIS voice more than I have done before. I want to be able to respond to his promptings more quickly, I want to speak into people's lives as Jesus did, I really just want to re-present Jesus' love to people. I really just want to be defined by His LOVE ...
(Ulrike)
Wow, beautifully put!
ReplyDelete